In the first couple of days I listened to Ike’s Chez Baldwin playlist, I remember logging into Spotify and seeing this princely name appear under the curatorial album cover. After several days of listening to the playlist, my curiosity grew on who this person could be. I clicked on Ike’s Spotify profile (some more great playlists) and did more digging I was curious — and found an article “Listening to the Joy in James Baldwin’s Record Collection” published on the site Hyperallergic (Sensitive to Art and Its Discontents) where something he said particularly struck me:
“I guess I wanted to feel amongst those boisterous and tender convos when guests like Nina Simone, Stevie Wonder (both featured in the playlist), Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison, amongst others, broke bread and debated with a loving hold and care that isn’t always common when one is in the throes of trying to find themselves as Baldwin was during this ‘late style’ writing period.”
—HYPERALLERGIC, 2020
I messaged Ike on Instagram. To my utter delight, he responded.
Things I’ve learned: communication is like a river when it comes to these types of projects. Coming from a journalism background, I was so used to things being a done and shut case.
Now, I’ve learned to cherish the process of simply adapting to the flow. People are so caught up on let’s schedule this call for Monday, 9 a.m., for one hour, and after that, the case is closed — and nothing after that.
That’s what I enjoyed so much, talking to Ike. We didn’t schedule a direct time, but I simply gave him my contact and told him to call whenever he was free.
In this interview, and in my subsequent communications with Ike, I also never really asked condensed questions, and he never tried to give condensed answers, either. It’s the same with the purpose of the essay and art as a whole, I think. There’s never a simple formula.
Ike was researching The Welcome Table for a curatorial thesis. He translates the ‘limitless idea” in Baldwin’s boldness towards androgyny, towards refusal of oblique definition into physical empty space through the proposal of the project “After Emptiness: Welcoming The Welcome Table.”
From the curatorial project: “Emptiness, much like void, escapes dimension other than its openness to possibilities.”
In the transcription of this interview, I’ve cut out some “so’s,” pauses, etc., but most of it remains relatively verbatim. I’ve also interspersed some of the text and voice messages after our phone call.
THE CONVERSATION
Christina: When did you first assemble this Chez Baldwin playlist?
Ikechúkwú: I made that – I’m gonna do some cleanup – my time is blurred with the pandemic thing. The first songs I put up were on January 20. Before the pandemic. So I found the photographs from Liaison Baldwin, and then I started adding stuff and just closely, visually looking at it. And that kind of came together.
Christina: You were researching the welcome table, right?
Ikechúkwú: There’s a word – Photogrammetry – that my friend used to explain what I was doing. I was researching the welcome table and communities I was drawn to. His exhibition was just a sign I’ll be back soon. I was interested in exhibitions that are open-ended and blank. So the welcome for one and a half other copies, I was interested in this late style of Baldwin. And for the record, if you want to know, the late style of Baldwin, and how the welcome table was some unfinished had gone through various iterations. He was more kind of vulnerable, with his bisexuality and so forth. That kind of drew me to so what I wanted to do with the project was to see if on Baldwin would kind of help in whatever way to kind of help the project in whatever way whether they had copies of the welcome table, or, you know, literally, what the exhibition was going to be was just a table with these copies of the welcome table for people to come and just read it. You know, that’s, that’s really what I wanted to do. And maybe that’s why I didn’t get the curatorial project. But it raises, pared down. And there was a program. I also wanted some writers and poets to kind of come in and just, you know, engage with text, maybe read from it all. When I was doing that research, that is how I came upon these photographs.
Christina: I’m very interested in what you said about the empty rooms and the blank slate. I was reading Baldwin’s essay, “The Uses of the Blues,” and, you know, he says: “I know nothing about music. All I know, that is most people never really hear it.” So it’s very curious about what you say about Baldwin’s own silence and sort of the metaphysics of music, how that connects to the space and the exhibition you are talking about, is always very interesting to me how he always incorporates the rhythms of the music he listens to in his own writing style, but he outright just says, I don’t know, and chooses, you know, not to comment on the actual substance of music.
Ikechúkwú: That’s such a good, you know, it’s, I don’t know much about music even. It’s interesting to think about when we talk about music criticism, you know, what does that mean? What does it look like? You know, and what’s beautiful about what he’s saying is that a lot of music criticism would look at the lyrics. And if there are no lyrics, then that’s where you, as a music critic, actually have to understand the ins and outs of the composing process. It’s easier for music critics these days to dismiss something because of the lyrics or the words or the arrangement or how complex the musical beats or whatnot. So in some ways, admitting that he doesn’t know much about music is brave, honest. And most writers should do so, myself too, you know, I know nothing about music. I just made this playlist because I like the sounds. I sit with some of the lyrics in a very kind of basic way because what can I write critically about? Music? You know, it depends on what one is looking for when they read music criticism, you know, and it also depends on one’s expertise. So the background in what, when they come to music writing?
Christina: I’m also very interested in what you think about all the music on this playlist. As I was listening to it, I really cherished just the experience of listening to it. But, I also noticed that most of the songs are about love, specifically romantic love. And, it’s really joyful, but also a little bit too sweet sometimes. And I was just wondering, why do you feel that with music, there’s an expectation is that artists can just write about flighty things like love and writers always have to deal with the very difficult complex things, I feel, maybe it’s just an effect of the form because the song is a more simple medium and in writing there are so many more complexities, but I wonder if there’s something to say about that.
About the form of music and how Baldwin’s writings, I always feel he’s taking on the burden when he’s writing, as compared to, I read your what you said in the hypoallergenic article about, how it was sort of a bomb in his torture chamber. I just wonder why there’s, artists can just write about happy love and harp, you know, even the songs about heartbreak sound joyful, but then you have a writer, and they’re sort of tasked with all these burdens.
Ikechúkwú: It’s, you know, it’s interesting because, you know, to your point, when I was looking at your questions, you pointed out beautifully that a lot of the musicians he listened to would also visit him in the south of France and would also kind of break bread and argue and debate on the welcome table because it was the welcome tip, though, two big tables that he had in his backyard. Maybe there was one outside and one inside but those two big wooden tables, and they will post gatherings. Or maybe there’s two on one insight, I will double check. But what was really fascinating was, there was the music that he loved, but he also wanted to know these people. And bringing them, debating with them inspired with them. And you know, for a lot of these people is you know, part exempla is You know, it wasn’t just she was a musician. It was also, you know, out here, you know, pushing, you know, for change in many ways. There’s in some ways, you know, music is a habit comes to us is very digestible, you know, at the same time, you think about the lives behind the hood behind the music, and it’s the whole thing, do you know, how do you do critique the other side is making the music you can think about, Michael Jackson, for example, individuals who have this kind of, questionable life outside of their music, you know, so, in some ways, maybe Baldwin surrounded himself with these people that he wanted to know, fully beyond just the music of, you know, heartbreak or love, you know, so there’s an interest in kind of, getting to know these people alongside the music in a way that in a way that, to me, we think about what’s I don’t know, culinary music, you know, things that are made for mass consumption, you know, if anything, you know, Baldwin wasn’t trying to, and, you know, it’s interesting when he said that, I don’t know anything about music, it’s almost kind of a cheeky admission because, you know, he’s writing about music and the uses of the blues or, you know, other short stories. And so, it’s all very, it’s, it’s always interesting, when someone admits that there are shortcomings or they attempt something. And in some ways, that’s what music is, you know, I may have a shortcoming in my life in terms of how I navigate things or talk about things, but I’m gonna attempt to make this song, I’m gonna attempt to make this record, you know. And if it sticks, it sticks if it doesn’t.
Christina: Really beautiful, and I was reading more about Bessie Smith, and how she inspired much of his early work. And there was this one article that was, Bessie Smith has this a a b style, where the first two lines rhyme. And then the first two lines are, setting up the scene, something relatively positive. And then the B line just goes, in a completely different direction, turns the joy into pain immediately. And then we’re analyzing Bessie Smith and then how Baldwin uses the same technique, and in a lot of his fiction, and he was, I want to write, Bessie Smith, I want to make a sentence, as clean as a bone. And that just really struck with me, and I’m just curious, maybe you could speak a bit about what you think about that. And also, how music has informed your own work as a curator.
Ikechúkwú: That’s interesting. No, I’m gonna I just found that as a reference. Isn’t the phrases on variable repeated? In Phylon, right. So, okay, at least I’m gonna read that. But you know, it’s, it’s you know, I’ve never really looked at, you know, when I read Baldwin’s essays, what has always intrigued me is the length of his sentences, but also especially these essays, but also the contents. When you’re reading, there’s a real rhythm and flow to especially when you read it aloud, really, Baldwin? Just sight reading, versus reading it out loud. It’s a different experience when you actually read his work out. But it’s interesting to the point about, you know, him borrowing a jazz style and I’m gonna read more about Bessie Smith and then I’ll circle back to you. We can chat again. What I know about him, you know, I don’t know if this is the case, but I’m hypothesizing that in his break from religion and trying to distance himself from that, I remember there’s a part where he talks about how he has a pivotal moment where he decides to not go to church and go to a musical event, the theater or play, and in some ways that division marks his turn to maybe look into more popular modes of address music. And, how can I bring this oratory style that cut of the church, and this musical style of a baby from Bessie Smith, and make it in a way that, you know, people, the masses can, you know, enjoy because, you know, if you look at a lot of balloons works from his plays, he’s very critical of the church. And in a way maybe, you know, he he’s adopting that kind of musical style of a be as added maybe, as a rejoinder to, against the church and, okay, I’m gonna use the church and take this form of composing as a way to structure my essays. And one thing I really loved about I about his essays, and thank you for being a disadvantage that you’re the hallmark of every good essay is, you’re bringing in positions that counter your argument. And he does a good job of that, in ways, and maybe that’s where the AAB kind of shows up, but, you know, I’m gonna look into this essay.
Christina: But, that was my bungled response to my bungled questions. But I’m also curious about, not many people remember Baldwin as a film critic, but in so many of his essays, he has so many great critiques. I’m thinking about Porgy and Bess, which was based off of Billie Holiday, and also in The Devil Finds Work where he critiques The Exorcist. And in the question I sent you, I was, Oh, . And that’s raw as well. In the question I said, I was curious, why you might think about what he would think about modern-day movies, you know, La La Land or Whiplash? Damien Chazelle. That sort of, I don’t know, it’s very odd. Because on one hand, it’s good that these movies are making jazz popular again, but I don’t really think they pay correct homage or anything. It is seems very popular culture-based these two movies.
Ikechúkwú: You know, I have to, I haven’t read a lot of Baldwin’s criticism from criticism. Let me read that. I might also ask my partner more versed in this, but let me read about that. Call back. But, you know, just from a very layman’s perspective of not having dug deep, you know, jazz or how jazz is portrayed, especially in films, you know, what’s coming out of Hollywood, kind of apparatus is also think about in terms of, you know, as a thinking about it as a financial kind of imperative behind what is being made in Hollywood, that will ultimately determine what gets represented. And, you know, I’m sure if Baldwin was still here, and he had a thing or two to say, he’d probably, you’re gonna have to read these essays at your reference. But, you know, there’s documentaries that have touched on, you know, notable jazz greats, but you know, I guess the question is, is the movie from the best place to, I guess maybe it’s the movie from the best place to kind of kind of go into these histories about, you know, the influence of black folks in jazz and whatnot, you know, . But, you know, at the same time, there’s, there’s choices and decisions. It’s funny, I was having a conversation the other day, because I’m really getting into country music and the Hispanic country music. And, you know, this professor, she’s a history professor, but she was remarking on how when you watch the movie 12 Years a Slave, but then when you read the book, you have these kind of contradictory moments in the book and movie, where in the book, Northup is very much attached to his fiddle, and the film director stays with him throughout. Whereas when you watch the film, there was a choice that was made where he plays his fiddle for, you know, the while slave master, and in the back of finances, there’s a Lupita calf that gets hit in the head by the wife. And then after that, he breaks the fiddle. But in the book, the fiddle is never broken. So it’s, in some ways, it’s interesting that the choices that are made in film, . That, you know, go against the kind of these histories around the influence of black folks in country music. So, you know, at the same vein, from La La Land to some of these movies you’re referencing, and I’m excited to read about Baldwin’s criticism, vis-a-vis film, but, you know, how those stories, you know, whether they are represented in the history of this music form, and it’s, it’s in an honest way, you know, why they take liberties, that, you know, in some ways, Hollywood needs, some of those moments in the script to kind of create tension or to create a catharsis or a moment of empathy with the character. So it may stray from the truth, but it’s doing it for the beat of the story. So I’m always thinking about, you know, I haven’t watched La La Land, but I walked past the motel where it was shot in. So I always, when I walk past, I always think about the movie.
But I haven’t watched it but it’s always, it goes back to the whole thing about, you know, Baldwin admitting that he knows nothing but attempting something, you know, what if these art forms admitted? I don’t know. It’s, I guess it’s always, we all know cinema is being made to be consumed in this pattern, editable way and maybe that’s why, you know, in Baldwin’s writing or in his criticism, he’s been very upfront about the fact that I may not know this thing, but let me try at it and maybe, I don’t know if film does that and maybe you have. You have interesting reality TV, the rehearsal or things that, where they’re trying to reveal that they don’t know what they’re gonna let me try and figure out this day hence why I don’t know if movie or cinema proper, documentary or different types of reality TV and maybe the way that you can kind of get a history the self-reflective and discursive way, you know, because I always wonder, has any, is there any film criticism where a critic has said something shifted the way that director makes his next film? I don’t know if that is, I’m sure someone has maybe done some type of study on the relationship between a critic and a filmmaker.
Christina: I feel Baldwin, you know, he went through, so many criticisms, but I don’t think he really changed. He always did what he wants.
Ikechúkwú: No, definitely.
Christina: And I’m also curious about, because I was looking at the records he had from Stevie Wonder, right, Innervisions, Talking Book, and there was another one. But I was struck by just how young Stevie Wonder was when he released it. And Baldwin, relative to him, was that the end of his career, the timelines in my brain just… And I was just wondering what you think? Because there’s such diversity in this playlist, right? It goes from gospel singers to jazz to blues to soul, all different types. Just wondering what you think about maybe Baldwin, my bobbin would have thought of these precocious artists like Stevie Wonder. And then he also commented on, you know, Michael Jackson. Maybe he saw part of himself in these artists because I remember in one of his essays, he was like, “I’m a very hungry, abnormally ambitious and abnormally intelligent.” Just wondering what you thought about how young these artists are and how it sort of interacted with Baldwin? Because I don’t know, when he collected these records, I’m assuming it was over the course of many years, right? And then assembled them in his house. But I was wondering what you thought about that?
Ikechúkwú: Wait, so that quote that you mentioned, “I’m very hungry.” Where’s that from?
Christina: It’s from “The Price of the Ticket.” I forgot which essay in particular.
Ikechúkwú: You know, in a way, one thing I loved about Baldwin is that he kept people around him. And it didn’t really matter the age difference, you know…
Okay, so, for example, Beauford Delaney and his relationship with him, you know, that was a 20-year difference in both of those… It’s always been on the pulse of what is new or what is not even possible to do, you know… I don’t, in some ways, we can look back and try to speculate on whether there was a critical basis behind some of these choices. But the guy could just be… he loved these musicians. And you know, Stevie Wonder, those albums are really impressive. You know, Roberta Flack was making amazing music at the time, Van Morrison, the Staples Singers. So I do wonder, you know, I’m not sure if I can fully understand the way his mind works. And when I read that Pacifica essay, he was probably taking things regardless of where the person’s stature was, old or young. And I remember there’s a passage where he talks about reading Samuel Delany’s… a memoir. The sci-fi writer has a memoir called, like the motion. The motion of light and water is an interesting moment towards the end of the book where someone told him to reach out to James Baldwin. And, you know, Sammy was very excited. It was like, “Okay, I’m a young writer, I think he was like, 22 at the time. And people were like, you should get to know James Baldwin.” And he reached out called Baldwin, Baldwin, picked up the phone, they had a little chat. And that’s kind of like where it ended. But I think in that moment, even though like Samuel goes on later in life to say that, like, you know, we didn’t really have much of a conversation, but that he made time and was available to speak to me just kind of like speaks to Baldwin’s generosity, like he was just. And, you know, it’s very interesting. Like, I think, you know, you think about his beef with a lot of people, a lot of people are like, you know, he would be good friends who were if you put out something that wasn’t as original, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like, I think in that way, he was always tapped into things and demanding the best from the people who were in community with. And I think, in some ways, you know, I think Eddie Glaude just came up with a book about looking at, he was like, really interested in love as this kind of philosophy within Baldwin’s life and work, and I think, I think, so while we call the, like, we can call these beefs. But I almost feel that they’re like, love letters. Right. Yeah. You know, and I think, in every gesture, whether it’s a small dialogue with an aspiring writer or a full-fledged back and forth with someone, I think it’s all a form of love. When you love people, you hold them accountable, you know, and I think that’s probably what’s lacking in a lot of film. You know, cultural criticism, you know, even me as a curator, like, you know, a good friend of mine, Kimmy, wrote this essay about the chronicity of positivity in, and it’s just talking about how, like, if you look at a lot of criticism around black artists, you’ll be hard-pressed to find any type of critical bet on the artist’s work. You know, so I think, and maybe that’s, I think, you know, going back to the whole Hollywood circuit and whatnot, I think that’s born out of the fact that like, you know, contemporary black artists are working in this time. You know, they’re in a market and they’re trying to sell so you almost feel like you have to be positive. So that they can continue to kind of like have a market so that the guy was going to say, “Oh, these other systems such and such it was reviewed by and had this glowing review,” but I think Baldwin was on a different wavelength. He was like, “I’m gonna call you out if you’re writing something that you like, why did you write Bigger Thomas? That character was known as?” yeah. So I think, you know, and I think maybe that’s similar with music. I think he was taking things in, you know, I have got to read the uses of blues and all that stuff to kind of like, think more about and I’ll probably circle back with you about Yeah, I imagine he was treating music in a similar way, you know? And, but I think it’s some ways to go back full circle, like, you know, I think in talking to you, I know I have to go back and do a bit more reading now because like, and it goes back to, you know, I know nothing about James Baldwin’s music in the same way that he says, “I know nothing about music.” But now because I made this playlist, because I just I love Baldwin, I think I was reading his work at the time, and I just wanted to make playlists, because I found his photographs. But now, you know, I need to kind of like dive into his music writing because I never really I just like I’ve read plays, read some of these books. And that’s just kind of like, I think I need to like go broader to not that like contextualize the playlists, but I think to kind of like, you know, I think to your point about a Bessie Smith. That’s really interesting.
Christina: I do have a final at 2:30. So I think I should probably head off soon. But we can talk later. Yeah, my project is due the 12th. But I’m happy to chat more after because, you know, it is for just a class but I’m still interested in like continuing the project after it’s technically good. Yeah. So whenever you’re free and whenever you feel like, you know, after you read whatever as is, yeah. Yeah. Okay, definitely. Let’s do that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. Great chatting to you.
